The Battle for Tremain
The squatter versus the farmer
I’m adding the comments section here at the top. This is a large page and it would be a pain to have to go all the way through to say something, or to read any comment…
To look at how I established the history of this site before taking possession of it, please look at the page “History, research and info of one specific site” I have included everything here. It should give a good idea about the extent of the background research you need to carry out before you attempt to acquire any site.
I will be updating this page if and when anything that may be of interest changes. There have been some recent developments which are described below.
Update 25/02/25
I’ve decided to start writing the final chapter of this situation and as previously said, I will include all of the vast amount of documents this case has generated. I’m putting this onto a separate page and the link is below..
Update 09/11/24
Well the Tribunal has run its course and finally, after a 4 week wait, there is an outcome. The link to the actual document recieved from the Tribunal is at the bottom of this section.
This can only be described as Donald Trump and the Tribunal
They both played out like watching a disaster unfurling, and the end result in both is unbelievable and terrifying at the same time
The difference however ends there
He won
I lost…
In a 24 page Decision report the Judge outlines the reasons why she has arrived at the verdict she has. This is interesting in itself as the majority of these reports usually appear to run from a couple of pages to around 10. At 24, this one seems to be working very hard to justify making what is in my mind a completely flawed decision.
Oh, and in case you’re wondering how I know this, I have around 500 of these reports sitting on my computer and have read every one of them.
I know that I have previously stated that I would abide by any decision made by the Tribunal, and ultimately, I will, however I do have a broad range of issues with the entire process that occurred, and I have the right to appeal against the decision within the next 28 days.
I intend to do so
Thankfully I anticipated this very eventuality and started to prepare for this as soon as the Tribunal itself ended.
If anyone is reading this who may end up in a Tribunal at some point I will be writing a comprehensive guide to the manner in which a Tribunal is run, and the steps you need to do to fully prepare yourself for being in one.
I have always said that I’m partially doing this for the sheer learning curve it presents, and the Tribunal was a major one.
And so it seems that I will be dragging this out to what appears to be the bitter end. And in some ways that is absolutely true.
Because not doing so would be to allow the Flat Earth Society to win, take control of government, and start to teach it to our children in schools.
Some things are just wrong and should be challenged in every way.
And this sadly is very wrong
And believe it or not, there are still three steps I can undertake before this is definitively finished.
Suffice to say, I don’t intend to move my property from the site until that point.
Just to be clear, I will be asking the Land Registry to put a stay on putting the order into practice as there will be an appeal process.
And lets see how this continues to play out
Update 06/10/24
I was pondering on this situation…I often do…there’s a lot to think about..
And I realised
There has been one consistent message that runs through everything….
I know there are tens of thousands of words, I’ve written stuff right from the very start of this and it’s been a massive amount of effort, consumed a ridiculous amount of time. The research alone has been enormous. This whole website, and especially this page is like an iceberg…..
You’re only getting to see the tip of it….The rest, the majority, the bulk of it sits underneath.
And the first message I sent to the Edward’s has the same basic request as the last one, and every attempt to resolve this has always had that message at it’s core..
I just want to be left alone…!!
Update 06/10/2024
I’ve just had something come through
Something that kind of puts everything into a twisted perspective
Now that the Edward’s solicitors are no longer acting for them…they’ve provided their final bill….
And because they are hoping that costs will be awarded against me, it’s been submitted to the court…and a copy has to be provided to me
And I won’t disclose the amount…but it’s eye watering!!!
And this situation has now become a tragedy of epic proportions.
My intention when I created this page was to track the situation every step of the way, partially so others could learn about how these situations play out in the real world
I didn’t know myself, so I figured it could be useful to others, or at least of interest..
The other reason was to provide some measure of balance and to allow anyone who wishes to, to look at this situation for themselves, to eventually have access to every document that has been submitted, so they can arrive at a measured and informed opinion about what has gone on here. I’m not telling anyone what to think, just to look at all the evidence before deciding.
It was never my intention to deliberately cause pain, or to seek to denigrate and humiliate my opponents in this matter.
But the reality is that they must be in a world of pain already, and I really am sorry to have been the trigger for that.
I don’t feel responsible because I have always made it very clear what my intentions were, and what was required to get rid of me. And there is a basic reality that this situation could have been resolved within a couple of days with no major cost or inconvenience to anyone…..
But other choices were made…..
And so I don’t wish to add to, or compound that..
So;-
I intend to only update this page with a single piece of information….the outcome of the Tribunal itself.
All the rest, the documents, statements, arguments etc will remain unpublished. The Edwards do not need to have whatever situation they end up with compounded by having this situation completely laid bare. Whatever pain they are in, I do not wish to add to it..
But there is one condition to this….
Whatever the decision that is made by the Tribunal MUST be adhered to.
Whatever land is deemed to be theirs, they can do as they please with, and I won’t be on it.
However, I do intend to remain on whatever land remains unregistered.
This is nothing new. I have always stated that this is my intention, and I have every right to do so. If there is an outcome where a portion of the land will not be registered to them, pretty much as I expect, I will continue to maintain possession of it. As simple as that.
And that will be the end of the matter
And the condition is simple…..
If they attempt to take over that land for themselves, or disrupt in any way my use of, or possession of that land
THEN ALL BETS ARE OFF!!
When I originally submitted an article to the local papers, my motivation was very simple. I had no practical defence against people with big tractors taking the law into their own hands. But knowing that local people are known to be extremely private and generally hate having their laundry aired in public, I hoped that publicity would halt their actions in their tracks…
And it did.
After the articles were published, there has never been any further activity….until a few days ago.
My concern is that when and if the Edward’s don’t get the result they are hoping for, and to which they are convinced they are completely entitled, they will just attempt to take possession by force.
They have a simple choice here.
They can choose to respect the legitimacy of this entire process, and of course that means that they accept whatever ruling is made at the end….
Or not.
If they choose not to, then I will revert back to my previous planned action and publish every document that has been submitted. People can judge their choices and actions for themselves…including the horrendous price they are going to pay for those choices.
I will submit articles to every paper and news outlet that showed interest in the original story, knowing full well they will jump into that bandwagon. Quite frankly, I could keep these people going in articles about this for years if I wanted to.
Based on the first round this means it will be covered by every local newspaper, and quickly get covered by the nationals before going worldwide.
Oh, and in case anyone is wondering, Yes, I have deliberately used this page to send a message to the Edwards all the way down the line, knowing full well it is read, either by them, or by friends and family members.
And yes, I really do hope they are paying attention……
They get the final choice in this matter in exactly the same way as this situation has reflected their choices all the way down the line….
Updated 03/10/2024
I thought I was done
No more updates to this page…everything is all set for the Tribunal itself, and there is nothing else likely to happen
It appears I was wrong..very wrong!!
There have been two major changes, both of which are likely to have a huge impact on proceedings..
There was only one thing left to do for the Tribunal itself. They want what is called a Skeleton Argument. A basic plan of how you intend to prove your side of the case along with any legal references to support your arguments. Pretty logical really.
On the day it was due, a few days ago, I got a letter
The Edward’s aren’t providing one. They say all the info required is in their statement of case. Hmmm…so the judge doesn’t need to be guided through the 900 pages of evidence then…apparently not.
But wait….there’s something else…
Their solicitor won’t be representing them at the Tribunal
Huh….!!
After 30 months of wrangling, letters, threats, evidence, statements….finally leading to the biodegradable boat anchor (the trial bundle) they’re out of the picture
COMPLETELY!!
And no, yet again, you can’t make this up…
It’s turning into a mystery novel full of bizarre twists and turns..
But..you say….they don’t need them any more…the case will be presented by a barrister….counsel….Kings counsel as they now are…a KC..
Er NO!!
They now have what’s called a litigation friend. Basically, anyone you want to turn up and present the case on your behalf. Doesn’t have to be qualified…just has to be there.
And in this case this thankless task has been delegated to…..their son in law!!
A 38 year old career bureaucrat who has spent his career wandering around farms for one reason or another…apart from the brief period he was busy writing food policy.
I really wouldn’t want to be in his shoes. This is the ultimate no win situation for a family member, and one which should be kept at arms length. He’s probably a really nice chap and doesn’t deserve to be dropped into this mess…..but here we are..
As usual, I sit here pondering the implications of something, what it means, why it’s happened…all of that
And here are my thoughts
I’ve put them in the order I think of likelihood
- The solicitors, with the agreement of their clients presented the whole case to a barrister to present the actual case on the day.
It’s amazing how many people do this.
A barrister of course is completely independent and apart from making a bloody good living, they probably only have one major concern.
That they don’t attach themselves to a case where they look like a total pillock.
And so…examine the case they do…and because they have no skin in this particular game…they can give their thoughts independently and freely (well, not quite, I suspect even getting them to look will come in at a few £K….)
And the outcome is people with their tail between their legs, solicitors who are desperate not to look more like idiots than they already are, and clients who are bloody angry.
Someone has finally told them what the reality of their situation is…and it’s not likely to be what their solicitor has been spoon feeding them for a few expensive years. Not only do they not have a case, they don’t have a barrister and in short shrift…they no longer have a solicitor.
2. The solicitors knew it was a crock all along, but thought, probably as solicitors are wont to do, that a few threats, nasty letters, a flood of paperwork etc, and the client gets the result they want. The nasty Land Pirate has upped and left. No one in their right mind would stick it out with this shit…except…oh….this one has……
Bugger!!
But herein lies the real problem. They realise they now have to take this complete twaddle and present the entire case before a very learned judge(an ex solicitor herself) and opposing them is a now also the very well read and learned Land Pirate who is having none of this bollocks…and intends to rip every nonsense word of it to shreds
Do you get where I’m going here…..
The results of course get published
Oh, and the Nasty Land Pirate likes to make use of the court of public opinion, puts everything on his well read website, and sends articles off to the press where…they get published locally…..and then go worldwide.
That’s got to be good for business……
And reputation..
Sorry Mrs Edwards….there’s a shortage of pencils in solicitor world…and this means we have to drop you like a lead balloon. Oh…and do drop the cheque at the desk on your way out…..and we thank you for your business…
3. The Edwards….who knows, perhaps with a little reality check from this very page, have had an epiphany……
They really have been sold a dodgy heifer from some bloke down the pub, and it really is time to cut lose. They’ve realised that they’ve thrown a shed load of money down a very deep drain…and are unlikely to get the result they want. They can’t stop the actual process..that’s a bit like a juggernaut….once it starts, it isn’t easily stopped, but they can stop writing the cheques for it, realising that;-
a) the amount they end up paying is no guarantee of the outcome they want
b) Whatever vast amount they’ve already poured into this….won’t actually be recovered…regardless of whether they win or not. So…if they win…they lose…and if they lose…they lose……Bit of a hard choice there really. ..
Did I mention at any point that I’ve been pushing hard for an actual resolution to this situation from the very start.
The Land Registry suggest mediation, the Tribunal does the same separately….all the way down the line there are opportunities to resolve things without going down a pointless rabbit hole.
They are desperate for you to do this, can you imagine the cost of a judge shipping out to sunny West Wales for a week along with a little group of essential support staff. They do everything to get this resolved….before it gets to them…(there is no charge for the actual Tribunal. Amazing really)
And I agreed…every time..
They didn’t….
I have offered a resolution….twice….
I never had so much as a reply
NOTHING!!
Oh, and the offer I made is likely to be identical to the decision the Tribunal is likely to come to….
IF THEY GET THE BEST POSSIBLE OUTCOME!!
So in my opinion, I was being generous..and offering to let them have what they should have been entitled to anyway…If they had managed this properly.
The worst possible outcome is likely to be way way worse
And it will have cost them a fortune to get it…..
Unfortunately, these are not people who appear to make good choices
They started on day 1, and continue to the present
In that regard…nothing has changed..
And that leads us perfectly to the second major event.
The Tribunal is the 9th to 11th October
On the 8th, there will be a site visit by the judge, so she can be shown any, and all the relevant features on the ground….
And because I haven’t been around there for much of the summer…the knotweed had taken over again…becoming a literal forest…
And all this needed was a basic path to be chopped out to give access to anywhere on the site…you can walk through it if you want…but it’s a bit of a struggle…
I was planning to do this a few days ahead of time..
BUT…..
The Edward’s have been onto the site….AND CLEARED EVERYTHING!!!
So to put this into perspective…a week before a judge was due to come and visit the site to look at features on the ground…they have made every attempt to destroy everything…
Everything has been cleared, the bales of silage are gone, all the overhanging trees have been cut at the side, there is a huge pile of debris pilled up in the middle of the site….all the knotweed has been stripped, all the ground foliage stripped away. It’s a bit like what you do with a building plot where all the greenery is completely stripped off…. A veritable wasteland….
I wonder why…….
And
I wonder what a judge will make of it
Actually…..no….I’m pretty sure I know what anyone with an ounce of common sense will make of it….me, the judge, anyone with a brain…….
Did I mention that the Edward’s make some seriously poor choices……..
Oh, and it wasn’t really a shock…..
I always knew they would do something…..
You know…leopards…spots….!!
I wonder if THEY thought I hadn’t expected it…….
Oh…..and it won’t make the slightest difference….
And I also keep saying…YOU CAN’T MAKE THIS SHIT UP….
Updated 26/09/24
As anyone reading this page will have noted, dealing with authorities is done at a tortoise pace but is essentially very methodical, systematic, and is always balanced.
We have just reached one of the final points before the actual Tribunal, the creation and submission of the Trial Bundle. This is the document the Tribunal has to rely on for the entire case and should contain all the basic information needed to support the entire process, along with whatever evidence supports either party’s case.
It has to be prepared by the Applicant, or in this case, their expensive counsel, has to be agreed upon by myself and is then distributed to all parties and to the Trial Judge.
I had a draft copy through a few days ago….and wait for it…..Its just under 900 pages long.
No you didn’t misread that…900 pages!!
To be fair, I have contributed to that total, so it’s not all them. My statement of case and evidence runs to a total of 72 pages.
One of the instructions from the Tribunal regarding what actually goes into this bundle says that it has to be relevant, and avoid duplication.
So just to recap for anyone who has lost track. The case now has two essential elements.
- That the Edward’s can prove the property and land at Penbont legitimately belongs to them, and they have sufficient documentary evidence to prove this
- That they are entitled to be the owners of that land in any case because they have been in adverse possession of the land since the 1940’s.
Proving the first should be a simple matter of giving a set of documents to the Tribunal proving ownership, and that will be done and dusted. A thousand solicitors are in the process of doing that with property up and down the country every day of the year. The process for doing this is very well defined and has been for centuries. Even though the process is a little more complex for unregistered land and needs more documentation (a set of deeds for instance) it is within the skill set of any competent solicitor.
And yet, the land registry did not allow their application to pass without giving others the opportunity to comment, or object. That very fact tells you something. And having examined my objection, this has now led to the point we are now at. Again, another simple fact that, without knowing anything else, tells you an awful lot. I won’t bother spelling it out. If you’re reading this and don’t get what I’m inferring……
There are two elements about the second point.
The first, and most obvious is that, if they can prove point 1, there is no need to even have point 2 as a back up. Yet again, something that, by its very existence is telling an awful lot. The Adverse possession claim only needs to be pursued if they cannot prove documentary title. Hmmmm…lets think about that a minute….!!
And actually, proving Adverse possession is a hell of a lot more complex than proving ownership.
Again, without going into the legalities, you have to provide evidence and witnesses etc, and all of this has to go back a very long time.
An interesting feature of the Tribunal process is that, like a court case, it doesn’t provide any feedback whatsoever during the process. They can’t tell you if you’re on the right track or not.
You have to cover all of the possible bases, and then hope that the result at the end is the one you actually want. And till that point, there will be no way to tell.
Ever watched Law and Order and seen where they’re doing deals right up until the very last moment. This is why.
The only time you know the result is at the end, or more accurately in these cases, you walk away and the judge gets as long as they need to ponder, look at case law etc and come to a final decision.
The outcome could take weeks.
So…back to the 900 pages..
Did I mention relevance. That should be a given. Pretty obvious really…how can it not be.
If the scroat down the road has pinched your bike and is being done for it, you don’t need a letter from your granny saying what a polite, well mannered person you are, who loves to ride the bike she bought you for xmas. It may provide colour and detail….but this is a court case, not a novel….and so…
Probably at least half of the bundle contains screen shots from my website. They’ve captured every page it would seem….including this one of course.
Yes Mrs Edwards…that web page does prove that you own the land in question….of course it does
And numerous pages from my barely watched You-tube channel. Not the video’s, just the static screenshots. Yet more proof of ownership….
And finally, lots of pages covering how the press have covered the story….
I had an opportunity to comment upon the content of the bundle. I didn’t expect it to make a difference…and of course it didn’t.
I suggested that the bundle was to put things politely, bloated and full of unnecessary stuff, probably around 5-600 pages worth, but I’ve now had the final draft, and it’s all still there. I didn’t bother to push harder to have this removed. I’m convinced that none of this information is in any way relevant, but hey, I’m in this to learn, so I wait with bated breath to see how it will be brought in. The only thought I have is that they want to portray me as despicable person and my website and the rest is ample proof of my depravity and lack of good moral fibre. Prove that they may, or believe they do…but I still fail to link this to proof of ownership of the site, or their possession of it in 1983, 1997, 2003, or any other year.
There has to be something I’m missing….
The alternative of course is that the majority of the bundle is pure padding…..because
- They think it will intimidate me, cause me to back away, tail between legs. Well. We’re at this point….what’s your best guess…
- They’re hoping to impress the judge with the sheer amount of work they’ve put into this. I suspect judge school 101 will be “ignore all the bullshit” and something along the lines of “the more bullshit there is, the harder they’re trying to hide the truth”
- They think that they can paint me as morally corrupt, and that this will somehow sway the judges decision. Again Judge 101 “it doesn’t matter what you think of the parties…what matters is the truth of the matter”….
- They’re acting on the instructions of their client. There may be a grain of truth to this, however their duty is to act in the best interests of their clients and I have a strong suspicion that finding a way to ignore absurd demands from clients is day 2 of solicitor school….or perhaps these guys had a note from their mum that day…
- They are trying to impress their client and the bigger the folder, the harder they’ve obviously worked, and if it all goes horribly wrong, they can shrug their shoulders and say “I don’t know what happened…after all that work”. This one I think is close to the truth, especially when you know that they’ve bulked the whole thing up by copying irrelevant stuff from the internet rather that doing actual work. I wouldn’t mind if this genuine legal research. I’ve been doing a lot of that recently, its laborious, lots of dead end and stuff you can’t use, lots of thinking about what is relevant and why, and how it can be applied here…that I can understand being charged for. This….not so much..
When they lose, they will of course have no opportunity to challenge the costs. They just get to pay up!!
If they win, and I have the costs against me, I could challenge the costs they have build up, pointing out that screenshots and photocopies, especially of irrelevant material cannot be charged for, even at the rate of a lowly lackey being charged at £150 per hour (and paid £25 probably) Just preparing this rubbish has probably taken a couple of days so 16 x 150 = 2050(plus VAT of course), so £2460.
There was an interesting case a few years ago where the judge had to evaluate costs in a case. They came in at around £150K to work out which side of a hedge a boundary lay(and that was just one sides costs!!) The judge ripped into it, challenged an awful lot of it, and awarded a little over £60K as being reasonable.
And there is a suspicious side of me that wonders if the solicitors are playing a simple “we can’t lose” game here. This is simple. Encourage some people who have little understanding of the law, and who are very angry, and full of righteous indignation, on a course of action.
Encourage that every step of the way, knowing that every step puts a very expensive hourly rate in your pocket. You encourage them to believe that when the other person loses, they get to pick up the tab, so it’s a win win all the way. They get the result they want, they get revenge on the nasty person who had the temerity to challenge them, and best of all they are persuaded that all the costs of achieving all of this won’t fall on them, but that I cop the lot. So it doesn’t matter what it costs, they won’t be paying.
You know, but they don’t really understand, that all costs are agreed to by the client(who is liable regardless), and paid for before any money is recovered. I would be very interested to know if the solicitors have done a credit check on me(more than likely!!) to see if I have the resources to pay. You can work out for yourselves the answer to that one. Did they stop to wonder why threatening me with £25k of court costs didn’t phase me in the least. This is one of those read between the lines moments…..You did..well done, I’m not sure they have…
Did I mention that the Edward’s farm on a farm leased from the County Council. No big assets there…but they do own 20 acres just up the road from Tremain, and Janet Edwards is the owner of the property her mother lives in, left by the same grandfather in the same will with a lifetime use clause for her mother. So in total, their net worth is somewhere probably between £4-700K depending who you ask. More than enough to cover a £30K legal bill. Of course, like most people they are probably asset rich and cash poor, so they may have to lose a herd of cows to pay the piper.
Do I sound unsympathetic. I have offered these people every opportunity to step away from this with a reasonable agreement. They didn’t even respond to any of these offers. So…er…no, I have no sympathy. Their choices, their consequences.
And without giving the whole game away. In light of there now being 900 pages to wade through, would anyone like to know what was the alternative to this entire process.
One page of one document.
That’s right. This entire process is occurring because of a single page of a single document.
I’ve seen this document, I know that it exists. I even made a voice recording which described my meeting with the Edwards where I was shown the grandfathers will and this document was included.
I make recordings about this, about everything really, because I do tend to forget stuff. I described the document in detail. There was a very good reason I did that. I was quite surprised when I realised there was something about it that, for me, was very important. Oh, and did I mention that I’ve been studying maps for over 40 years. Not just looking and finding a route from A to B, but detailed microscopic study. I know them intimately. That’s why much of this site is around studying the details of stuff, and realising what it means. And of course I’ve studied all the available maps of this location over a number of years. I know it so well I recognise anything of interest, or that stands out.
However, every action taken ever since has been on the basis that this document does not exist, has never existed, was never shown to me as I have always claimed.
And they have to do this in order to claim what they’re claiming. Because if they submitted this single page, they would shoot themselves in the foot. Their case is entirely destroyed by the lines on that document.
This is one of those situations where a single lie then sets in motion a whole chain of events and consequences…and all because of that single lie.
As part of this process, I have stated from the start this document exists. I have repeatedly asked them to provide it, and have asked for, and the tribunal has directed them to provide it. They have continually claimed that it does not exist.
For me there are two basic elements of this case.
- Proving that their claim in the way they have presented it is a complete nonsense. All the evidence has already been presented that supports this. Anyone who examines it with a very critical eye will already have worked this out for themselves and I suspect that when I explain this on the day, there will be no surprises. And in case anyone is wondering, yes, I fully believe that the solicitors are in no doubt about the case they are about to present..they can’t not be…they’re really not that stupid!!
- I will prove beyond any doubt that the Edward’s are liers. And the really sad part about this is that those lies started from the second they opened their mouth’s on the day I first met them, and have never stopped. And again, the evidence that proves this is sitting in the already presented material.
There is a final point here that makes me immensely sad. The only way they can continue to support their nonsense claim is by getting a collection of relatives and their closest neighbours, people they’ve known all their lives, and who probably like, trust and respect them. And they have got this group of probably extremely honest people, to support them in their lies, and to therefore become part of that. And at the end of this those people will get to find out the truth.
And why should anyone believe me. Why should I have more credibility, and they have less. Credibility matters not one jot in this matter. They can paint me as the devil incarnate if they want but it won’t change the outcome because the evidence is irrefutable…
And if there is anyone following this who likes a good mystery and solving stuff, when I publish the entire case on this site (it’s not long now folks!!!) don’t read through my statement of case, just look at all the evidence and try and work it out for yourself. This really is an Agatha Christie novel where the truth is never obvious, and yet it always actually is. You just have to see it with the wisdom of Miss Marple, or Poirot…..
I’m going to finish with a final point I suggest few people have grasped…
If I win this case…I don’t actually win anything!!
What nonsense you say, you can’t be doing all this if there’s nothing at the end of it.
And yet..
The simple reality is that if I win, I don’t magically get the land. All I actually do is prevent them from becoming the registered owners, and possibly only to part of it.
What that means in real terms is that
- I get to stay there and use it like I planned
- They have no legal basis to throw me off
- I still have to keep and prove possession of the land in order to claim it. A mere 12 years..
- There is still, and always the risk that someone else with a magic piece of paper can come along and turf me off. Unlikely, but still a risk nonetheless.
- I can’t sell it or profit from it. Strangely enough I can bequeath it to whomever I want, so if I tragically get run over by a tractor one dark night….
Oh and the locals can continue to believe whatever they want, people can still blow their horns if they want to..crack on..it didn’t work 2 years ago, now you would just be proving what complete brainless idiots you are.
So there still sits the question…why??
When I found this land I genuinely though there was no owner. The Edwards turning up the first day was a bit of a surprise, but one I’d anticipated and planned for.
They didn’t prove they owned it.
They left me alone…totally..for about 12 months.
Then Kevin Edwards decided to be a complete knobhead, take direct action and just chuck me off..
BAD MOVE!!
I had two choices
Back away, head off to one of the hundreds of other locations I know I could grab at any time..
Or STAY, FIGHT, and LEARN!!
And I’m a bit of a stubborn northern bugger who doesn’t like to be pushed around….so
HERE WE ARE….
One this note I really need to thank the Edward’s.
They have set in motion the need for me to become educated, to study, learn, test things out, watch how things progress. The fact this has gone through the entire legal gamut has for me been fantastic. No better way to learn than to be in the middle of the firefight…..
I have probably put a thousand hours of study into fighting this..and that is not an exaggeration.
On a positive note however, the Edwards will very shortly be leaning that they will have to pay me an hourly rate(£19.50, the rate set for defendants representing themselves) for a big chunk of that. The majority of that work was to learn how to fight this case. Solicitors get paid £300 per hour because they already had that education. I had to start from scratch.
This is now so close to the end..if there is any support out there, send me a quick note just to let me know. It would be appreciated….
Update 26/06/2024
Well we now appear to have an endpoint listed. The Tribunal date has now been set, and completely out of my control, and determined by those with much more knowledge than I possess, has been booked to take place over three days from the 9th to the 11th October.
There were many comments when the whole situation went public who gave the impression that the whole Tribunal thing was just an ongoing part of some scam. Well it’s pretty serious business if they’ve weighed it up and decided it will take three days to sort out. Wow!!
The day before, the 8th October, has been set aside for a site visit, so the Tribunal judge can see for themselves the actual land, and of course its features and characteristics.
And, as predicted, it’s being held as locally as appears to be possible, in the Justice centre in Carmarthen.
I’m expecting to get there and be faced with a table full of very expensive legal council. I have no idea if they’re booking in a barrister for the show, but the cost of doing that for a 3 day stint is probably eye wateringly expensive. In case anyone including the applicants are curious, I will be entirely representing myself, no legal support whatsoever, nor has there been throughout this entire process.
One interesting point…I advised the Edward’s the day I met them to get good legal advice regarding this situation. Given that we are now heading towards this inevitable destination, I’m afraid they decided not to take my simple advice. Hey Ho….entirely their choice. It will however, also be entirely their cost.
I have been watching some recent Tribunals. They are entirely public and free to attend and watch, the same as any other court case. It’s a sort of fascinating process which appears to consist of a judge, who has developed an almost remarkable degree of tolerance for these matters, who then spends hours listening to people drawing out what are often the most tenuous, spurious and often ridiculous arguments, much of which completely flies in the face of even the most basic common sense.
What is also terrifying is that, given that this all relates to land ownership, the protagonists are for the main part, wealthy, articulate, often highly intelligent people, who also appear to have an extraordinary capacity to be narrow minded, and can persuade themselves that the absurd can often be true, simply because they believe it to be.
Thankfully, the Judges are incredibly level headed and sharp, and you may be able to persuade your mates down the pub that you’re totally in the right and your righteous indignation is entirely justified and worth pursuing…at all costs, but they don’t seem to go in for persuasion. They seem to like their facts simple, straightforward, and blindingly obvious to most sensible people.
I’ve actually been quite surprised to find that, this area of law at least, appears to be suffused with sense. You bought what you bought, got what you got, things that appear to be something usually are. It’s hard to persuade someone a boundary is where it is when a fence and hedge are 20 feet away. Logic will almost always win, along with good evidence of course.
And about half the cases have people representing themselves, although I suspect that part of this is that every local solicitor for miles around has just walked away from a mess they don’t want to be associated with, regardless of the payday at the end of it. Some things are just not worth it.
Update 23/04/24
We should be getting close to the end now. I duly objected to the applicant’s complete change of tack where they are now claiming adverse possession of the land. I should point out that they also continue to claim that they own it, so this may prove interesting. This was briefly considered by the Tribunal who decided that they have every right to make any claim they like, and should also be covering all the bases, so it moves forward. I was not surprised, I objected, more out of curiosity and to see what would happen, so the outcome didn’t shock.
I was duly given further time to amend my own statement of Case and had to submit this by the 17th April, so this has just gone in. There are a few changes, nothing major. As suspected, the witnesses they’ve got are essentially their neighbours. They’ve submitted a total of 9 witness statements, but 5 of these are from themselves and family members, so only 4 apparently independent ones. As their solicitors have pointed out, and which I fully agree with, the substance of this case will emerge when these witnesses are called to provide their evidence in person…which of course allows it to be challenged and questioned by me. And of course it will be.
I wonder if any of their supporters are aware that they’re actually supporting a claim for squatting, or do they think this is somehow more legitimate simply because it isn’t me. I suspect they don’t..
There is one element of this I do wonder about…
These are people who have lived in the area, apparently for generations, they know everyone for miles around…and they do…the number of people blowing their horns in the first few days was amazing. If there are some form of local jungle drums, these people know how to use them…
And yet
This is like a funeral for the most popular person in the village..
Where only a couple of people turn up..
What does this mean
Simply that I would have expected almost universal support against my activities. The way the Edward’s have portrayed this, the entire village is hostile to my actions, and have been affected by what I’m doing. The level of support I would have anticipated was far more than just their immediate neighbours, and probably oldest friends..
So I wonder what the message is here..
And a final note. There was a document to submit checking availability between July 24th and October 24th. I’m guessing this is the date range when the Tribunal is likely to happen. So no too long now…
Update to website 01/03/24
I promise you…I’m not making this up.
The farmers, through their solicitors have now asked to change their claim to the land.
They’ve sent a letter and I’ve copied the key sentence here..interpret it as you wish
“This application has been brought about in response to the arguments raised by the
Respondent in his Statement of Case. It is our feeling that the Applicant may be severely
prejudiced if this application is not allowed, as it may deprive her of a valid claim to be
registered over the whole of the Property, if her primary case is not accepted.”
The simple gist of their new claim…wait for it
They claim adverse possession of the land based on apparent continuous use and possession of the land since the 1940’s.
You can’t make this up. They’re effectively saying that if they can’t prove they own the land..and it appears they’re now unsure that they can, they should have it anyway because they have been squatters since the 1940’s.
And I know exactly how they intend to prove this
They will get a note from a dozen of their neighbours and friends saying how they’ve never left the property since 1940, and have always owned and used it.
Oh, and having made a huge change of approach, they’re also asking the Tribunal to do what is called a paper determination which means they just look at the submitted evidence, and make a ruling based on this, no actual Tribunal necessary. So, we have just made a dramatic U-turn in our claim, and think that it entirely reasonable for the Tribunal to just go…”Oh OK then” and make a judgement in their favour.
I’m not commenting on this. I’m just going to wait and see how the Tribunal responds.
There is also a deadline coming up on the 5th March for any witness statements to be provided. That will prove very interesting.
Watch this space.
update 24th January 2024
Well hopefully we appear to be drawing towards the end game of this little dance around the Tribunal.
We have just passed the most recent deadline for, in this case, final submissions of evidence to the Tribunal, which was the 23rd January.
What was interesting about this is that the Tribunal directs both parties to submit every piece of evidence they have, and are very specific that this has to include, not only anything that supports their case, but also anything that doesn’t, and even include anything that specifically works against the actual case. Totally fair right, and of course perfectly balanced in that that rule applies to both parties.
I had previously asked the Tribunal to direct the Applicants to present documents that I know they have in their possession. I waited with bated breath to see if they ended up actually doing this.
I wasn’t really surprised…they didn’t..
So I submitted a brief letter stating that my original submission was sufficient and didn’t wish to, or need to add anything to support it….
But they have submitted an absolutely vast amount of documentation as their final submission of evidence…
I’ve read through hundreds of case summaries and been amazed when the trial judge refers to a document pack of 500 pages, and this for a battle over a hedge 20ft long. What possible evidence can there even be to run to such length
Well now I know
Their submission was very professionally arranged in separate folders
A through to F. It started with copies of the statements of case…reasonable enough, went on to add a handful of title deeds, none of which seemed in any way connected, proceeded to add copies of all the various correspondence between the parties, not sure how that adds anything here, but I’m only a lay person so what would I know. So far, pretty much nothing that wasn’t already in the case, and certainly nothing that adds anything new…and we’re up to around 50 – 60 documents, most of which are just letters and emails…
but then
Folder F…miscellaneous..
Here we come to the main thrust of their case
The evidence that will blow me and my case completely out the water
98 documents that will put me squarely in my place
Except…er..it so isn’t.
Yes it is 98 documents…
30 are photographs of the site itself…or to be more precise, in the main, photo’s of mostly my caravan, and a few other bits, taken at various times, including after it had all been dumped by the roadside. I should add there were some random pics of old fencing with someone’s hand, but I’m not sure what that adds.
Oh, and just to make sure there is real impact, one of the photo’s is copied 4 times, another only twice..I can’t quite work out why..
There are another 20 pages of screenshots of this very website, taken page by page. They must have covered every page..very relevant..how??
7 pages of badly copied articles printed by the local and national press..again ??
15 pages of youtube video’s I’ve put on my landpirate page, not the video’s, just the static pages..yet again ?????
11 maps, again with one map copied 4 times, others so badly copied they can barely be read
3 pages of letters I had written to the farmers, or for the general public
And a few other random documents
The total amount of documents is 166. How many pages, I have no idea, but we are probably talking of around 500 at least and probably way more than that. I can now see where these huge bundles of supporting documents come from.
If you’ve got this far, and are wondering what exactly any of these add to the case…well, so am I, and if you have any insights, please send me a message, I’d love to know.
And this case hinges on whatever documents support the ownership of the land, deeds etc. Probably no more than half a dozen documents at best.
As for the rest
To be honest complete junk, and from an evidential point of view, worthless as far as I can see. I wonder if I’m just being naive..of course it’s all relevant. It must be, they wouldn’t submit it otherwise..
And the document that I know they have, but refuse to submit…well surprise surprise…it’s still not there.
This really is a case of bullshit baffles brains…or attempt to anyway..
What is interesting about all the cases I’m reading is the number of times the judge will comment on the quality and nature and value of the evidence presented to them, as well as the manner in which it is then presented in person. Time will tell how this is received. Personally I loathe people wasting my time with necessary padding and waffle. And working in Mental Health where I participated in hundreds of Mental Health Tribunals, I’ve seen dozens of highly qualified and experienced people, from psychiatrists to social workers to nurses being ripped to shreds when attempting to present poorly prepared material. Suffice to say, it never happened to me. That’s not meant to sound like bragging, but as a professional, you don’t walk into any situation without doing some serious preparation and knowing your stuff inside and out.
There is a date set for witness statements to be provided by the 5th March, but as this case doesn’t appear to use any, I’m asking for that date to be set aside, and a date set for the Tribunal itself. I’m actually looking forward to seeing how these professionals plan to work this into a meaningful presentation, and win their case. If the size of the bundle is anything to go on, the Tribunal itself will probably have to run.to at least a couple of days. Amazing really, I thought the whole thing could get wrapped up within a few hours. We’ll see.
I see that the majority of these submissions have been put together by a trainee solicitor and have a sneaking suspicion that she may end up being the one representing the firm during the tribunal itself, if this is allowed. I would image the people with their names on the letterheads will want to be involved with as little of this as possible, and for good reason.
Based on the work done by this company so far, and this final flourish of work they’ve gone to great lengths to put together….I wouldn’t employ these people to help me fill in an application for a bus pass!!
And they should be ashamed for encouraging this ….
I really do dread to think what the Edwards are paying for this rubbish. Believe it or not, this whole process, to me, is completely unnecessary and really quite sad, and at the end of it there will be some seriously embittered and angry people..and a ridiculous legal bill to pay. All this could have been avoided by making an attempt to be reasonable, and simply having a conversation. Of course the further this goes, the less likely that is ever likely to happen.
Oh, and I’m not talking about myself. Even if I lose, I’ve still gained a wealth of experience. One that you simply couldn’t get any other way.
Oh..and I won’t lose..
If a date is set, it could be within the next few months
I’ll keep this page updated.
Update re situation 27/12/23
The representations from both sides have now been reviewed by the Tribunal judge who has suggested that there is a good possibility that the situation can be resolved through mediation. This has now been offered, and both parties would have to agree to participate, and have the capacity to reach a compromise situation, for this to take place. Interestingly, the Tribunal service offers this as a free service, presumably as it then avoids the full cost of a full tribunal where possible. The date set for a response to this is the 28th December. I have stated that I will participate in this, but have no idea what the Edward’s are likely to do(well, I do, and I suspect I’ll be right.)
I have previously put an offer on the table which I believe would resolve the situation without the need to proceed to the Tribunal and therefore save the potentially astronomical costs that this involves, but there has never been any response to my offer. I eventually put a time limit on my offer which was the 20th December, but again, no response. No attempt to even discuss any part of this. I did get a brief response from their solicitors at one point, but it was such a nonsense reply that I couldn’t even respond to it. I should point out that part of their solicitors argument has always been that my objection is convoluted and essentially makes no sense to them. As I pointed out, this matters not as it clearly makes sense to the land registry, and thereafter the tribunal.
An interesting take on the offer of mediation is that they clearly perceive that that there is a potential middle ground here, and that there is the potential to reach a compromise. I have always stated, ever since I was in full possession of all the facts of the situation, that this was the case, and my offer completely reflects that. I also think that this compromise is unlikely to happen unless the Tribunal forces it to. The irony is that the outcome is likely to be the same either way. The only purpose that the tribunal will serve, after a huge amount of effort, and in their case, cost, is to probably reach exactly the same point as my offer has suggested. As I pointed out to the Edward’s, they can effectively reach the same outcome, either with a huge legal bill, or without.
Another point of interest is that the Tribunal has the power to make one party pay the costs of the other party. The loser usually pays the costs of the winner, as well as their own. This has always been the threat held over my head by the Edward’s solicitors. They have stated that they anticipate that their costs will be in the region of £25K, and keep threatening that I will be responsible for all of that if I don’t immediately pack up and leave. As I have stated previously, the Edward’s have been deemed the applicants in this case, and it therefore falls to them to prove their case. This is interesting as I am now studying hundreds of old tribunal cases for ideas and clues about how the law actually applies. This is fascinating and terrifying at the same time. Bear in mind, the Tribunal only deals with the cases that can’t be resolved any other way, and often this is because the parties are so embattled, there is no potential for resolution. One point of interest of course is that it only takes one of the parties to be completely unreasonable for this situation to occur. Believe it or not, I am the one who has tried from the start to be reasonable. The only apparently unreasonable thing I do is that I won’t do what I’m told…I won’t leave without the evidence of ownership..and here we are..!!
When you start to read some of these cases, you realise the battles people will fight over literally a couple of feet of worthless ground, spending an unbelievable amount in the process of doing so. One case I read was where a boundary fell at a hedge. One party represented themselves, but lost, the other racked up over £150K in expensive fees having brought in the big guns from a multi branched London based firm who charged the earth for their services. Interestingly, even the judge decided this was excessive and agreed the loser would pay a more reasonable fee of half that. And the amounts of land being battled over often amount to a couple of feet of boundary.
Unfortunately, I believe that the Edward’s are being supported and encouraged by their very expensive, and curiously, out of town solicitors, to seemingly fight this to the end, possibly with the expectation that they won’t lose, and therefore, won’t end up paying the bill. I suspect that my presence, regardless of the fact that it hasn’t actually cost them anything in real terms (I am referring to costs at the land itself here, not their choices to engage and press ahead with completely pointless legal action) has offended their sensibilities and their response to this is that they will do everything they possibly can to ensure I come away from this situation with nothing.
One aspect of this of course is that the dispute is now very much in the public domain, and probably being watched with interest by a range of people, probably including many in the local area who have a curiosity about the developments at the site. However, the publicity element of this only occurred after I submitted a draft article(the majority of which was used as it was) to the Cambrian News, and Wales Online, both of whom then ran front page articles, before it was picked up and literally spread all over the country. That course of action however was only in response to the Edward’s attempt to throw me off the site, leaving my property to be picked over at the side of the road. Prior to this, the only reason anyone even knew about what was happening at the site was because the Edward’s had told as many people as possible, encouraging them to show their objection to my actions by beeping their horns as they drove by the site.
And for the first few weeks, many did. I suspect they thought that if they could show the feelings of the community, I would just run rapidly away, my tail between my legs, never to be seen or heard of again. Damn…that didn’t work!! What I have always found very curious in this matter is how few people seem to consider the simple fact that the site had been completely abandoned…for decades.
But the current reality is that the whole situation will now be on display for all to see. I don’t mind this, I’m prepared to fight a battle, particularly when I have good information and knowledge on my side, as well as the law. The more challenging this situation has become, the greater my personal learning curve, and as anyone who reads this site will now understand, this learning is being shared so anyone else who wants to go through the process can learn from my situation and use this to their advantage. I suspect that the Edward’s may not be enjoying the same kind of learning experience.
However, the entire choice about how to manage this situation has been almost entirely theirs. My position is that I would have remained quietly on the land, not causing any problems for anyone, and as far as I was concerned the only people who needed to be aware of the situation at all were myself and the Edward’s. Even if it had proceeded to the Land Registry, and subsequently, a Tribunal, this could all have been done privately, a situation to be resolved, and done in a reasonable manner.
This, however is clearly not the case. And unfortunately, the more public the circumstances, the more there is potentially to lose, partially in terms of cost, but mostly in terms of pride, and probably respect in the community.
People may not like what I’m doing, but I’ve done all of it in a reasonable manner and will continue to do so. And as I’ve stated all along, if there is proof of ownership of this land, then I’m gone. This will never be an issue. There is and never would be any point in fighting further. The law as it stands is entirely on the side of the owner..and there is virtually no way to fight this.
I’m not naive. If I attempt to take over a piece of unregistered land, I’m well aware that there may be a legitimate owner out there who has the means and the legal right to get rid of me. But they have to do it properly, and regardless of what they think about what I’ve done, and how offended they are about my actions, they have to do it in a reasonable and respectful manner. And they also have to make sure they have all their ducks in a row. And this is exactly where the Edward’s got it completely wrong from the start, and part of how they set a course of action in motion that they are now too stubborn to deviate from. And quite frankly, this is really rather sad. One of the first things I said to them is to get good legal advice. They didn’t. They acted anyway, and have continued on the same course ever since. They will end up with any land they own, and I won’t be on it. They’ll also have a substantial legal bill to pay which will probably include an amount to cover my considerable investment in time and energy.
And this is really very sad…but these aren’t my choices…
update on situation 05/12/23
There have been a few developments.
There had been a date set for me submitting my statement of case (SOC) which was the 4th December. This is my description of my case and a response to the applicants statement of case that was submitted 28 days before.
The Tribunal had informed both parties that they would consider the application for a stay of case in order to commence County Court proceedings after I had submitted my SOC. I of course objected to their application. I want this sorted as soon as possible.Why wouldn’t anybody?
I managed to complete my SOC by the skin of my teeth having done an all night session to get it completed. I was a bit surprised how much I ended up doing, a document with 5000 words and 15 pages with 29 pages of evidence. It’s an interesting comparison. The applicants had effectively submitted exactly the same case as they submitted for their initial application. I was wondering if they would add anything to it, but apparently not. Unfortunately, and without revealing what the issue is with their case, they’ve committed themselves to a particular position and cannot now submit any further evidence as this would actually undermine their application. They’ve boxed themselves into a dead end. I of course have to prove that their case cannot be right, and hope I’ve managed to do that.
I submitted my case about 4 minutes before the 5pm deadline. Just in time, but enough.
The applicants had been required to justify the reasons for an extension of time, and not surprisingly, have now withdrawn that application. They wrote a lot of wordage about costs and allowing a single court to make the ultimate decision, but in their words
“It may be that the Tribunal can continue to deal with the matter of the first registration (of which a determination as to title/ ownership will be required before a court can issue a possession order in any event) even if injunctive relief or a possession order application may be required.”
I may be a bit ignorant about legal matters, but I’m pretty sure that that basically says that they cant apply for possession until the Tribunal decides what, if anything, they own.
Oh, and that very point was the basis of my objection to the extension. You can’t do one without the other, and the Tribunal comes first.
The one thing I do find remarkable about the Edward’s solicitors is their ability to make it appear that any situation that is clearly not in their favour has actually been their choice. They’ve managed to do this a number of times in the same way. I suspect that this is a clever way solicitors have of disguising what are actually their failures, making it appear they are fully in control of a situation. This can never disguise that simple fact that they’re not actually very good, and have made lots of very basic mistakes.
There was an article in the Teifyside advertiser written by a local journalist which was very balanced. There was an interesting comment made by Kevin Edwards where he stated that he thought I was only doing this as I was making a point. (he also said he thought I wanted paying off..but strangely has never made any offer to do so…not that it would matter)
I will take this opportunity to comment on what he said..because in essence, he is right. I am trying to make a number of points.
1. That the ownership of land is a responsibility. If you’ve got it, part of that responsibility is using it, maintaining it, protecting it.
2. That there are lots of genuine people out there looking for land to make good use of. If you have land you don’t make use of then let someone else do it. There are lots of ways to do this, you don’t have give up ownership of it.
3. That just because you claim to own something, doesn’t mean that you do. A responsible owner has proof. In this modern world this is easy to establish.
4. That you treat people in a respectful manner, even if they’ve done something you don’t agree with, or that impacts upon you, you work towards a resolution in a reasonable way.
5. That attempting to intimidate someone else is never acceptable, whatever form it takes.
6. Adverse possession, as contentious as it appears to be with many people, is still a legitimate way that people take control of and acquire land. It’s included in the most recent legislation(2002) for a very good reason, and many thousands of cases are determined using this legislation every year. It’s not, as people appear to believe, a thieves charter. Oh and to acquire land using it you have to jump through some very serious hoops. It’s never ever easy.
7. People should be very careful how they respond to any challenging situation. Your actions at the beginning may set you on a course that becomes impossible to deviate from and leave you unable to resolve matters. Take a step back and think very carefully before you set something in motion.
8. That very few situations are simply black and white. I find it remarkable, and quite scary how many people have expressed opinions and drawn conclusions based on little or no real knowledge of the facts. There is no excuse to remain ignorant of something. We have access to knowledge like never before and yet people prefer to get their wisdom from a sound-bite rather than a library.
9. Like many people, I get really annoyed when someone tries to force me to do something, and have a tendency to dig my heels in, and fight back as much as I can. So am I gonna fight this to the very end…er yes..I am!!
I made a very reasonable offer to the Edward’s that would allow this situation to be concluded. Part of that offer though is that they bear responsibility, the consequences, and also, the costs that are a consequence of the many poor decisions they have made in this matter. I didn’t force them to do anything, every choice they made was entirely theirs to make and I get the impression they have had some very expensive, if pointless advice to support and guide them, pretty much from the get go.
However, as things stand, the Tribunal will be the forum where the issues around this land will be decided.
Update on current position 22/11/23
If you’ve been reading this page, you know that the issue regarding the ownership of this land has now been passed to the first tier of the land tribunal. They are the specialist court that has the statutory responsibility to determine a wide range of issues regarding land ownership.
And yet
Having been set into action, the court did a couple of things
They determined who was the applicant, and who was the respondent. The applicant is the one who is required to prove their case. The Edward’s in this case are deemed to be the applicant.
This means that certain timelines are then created
A date is set for the Applicant to submit something called a “Statement of Case”(SOC). This, like any other court case is to set out the entirety of the case being argued along with any evidence that supports the case they are presenting.
I am the Respondent, and have to be provided with a copy of their statement of case and am then required to submit my own statement of case within 30 days.
After this the Tribunal will then look at the evidence and set a date for the case to be heard.
Suffice to say, the Tribunal has a wide range of powers, and are specialists in resolving land based disputes.
There are a few interesting things about Tribunals. They are based in London, but will travel to anywhere in the country to hear the actual case. There is a recent example where a case was heard over 4 days in August 2023 in Aberystwyth.
The Tribunal judge will often visit the actual site in order to judge things for themselves. Very often a site visit will make the case clearer, allow land features to be examined etc. The Applicant and respondent are usually invited to these site visits and are then able to point out anything they think may be relevant.
The Tribunal can demand further evidence be provided to them, or witnesses to testify.
There is a requirement that a case is heard within 10 weeks of the evidence being presented to them.
The Edward’s have presented a case that is identical to their original application. I am in the process of completing my own statement of case as my deadline is now the 5th December.
So if a case is going to the Tribunal you have a pretty good idea that whatever the issue is, it’s going to have a resolution within a fairly short period of time.
There are a couple of things of interest here. The Edward’s case is no different to their original application. Given that the Land Registry(LR) accepted that I had a valid objection to this application, this in itself seems surprising, and yet not. In other words, there is clearly an issue with their application, and they have not, or cannot do anything to rectify this. There is actually a very good reason for this. They have created a situation where they have committed themselves to a certain position, and now cannot shift from what they have already claimed.
I’m not at this point providing detailed information as to what the point of objection is, and why their case has some serious flaws, but my objection has been examined by the legal Bods at the Land Registry and has been deemed valid.
They now have to prove their case, and I have to prove whether my objection is valid.
What people may be wondering is…they have a set of deeds, what can the issue possibly be…well, there is one, and so…watch this space.
But you would also think, great, we’re getting to a point where this issue is about to be resolved one way or the other. That’s has to be good doesn’t it.
Well apparently not
About a month before their SOC was due, they applied for a delay in the proceedings on the basis that they intend to take me to the county court for possession, legal costs and a couple of other nonsense issues.
They asked for a 3 month delay, and in all likelihood this would end up being a 12 month delay as there are serious backlogs at county courts, and this case will have a low priority.
I was given the opportunity to object which I did.
I want this before the Tribunal so it can be properly sorted out.
They then asked for a two week extension as the expert apparently helping to build their case was on holiday over half term. I again objected. This is complete nonsense. It’ll be…”my dog ate the case file next”.
Due to the delays bouncing things backwards and forwards, the date the SOC was due from them was the day before my last response was due. This meant that they effectively had no choice but to submit their SOC anyway, and subsequently did so.
I’ve also had a letter directly from their solicitors in the middle of all this demanding that I withdraw from the land, and more importantly, withdraw my objection to their application. The consequences for not doing so is that they will be claiming their legal costs from me, the estimation of which is £25K.
This letter was blatant threats and attempted intimidation. I have responded to it with the offer of a compromise situation, but have little expectation they will even consider this.
One point of interest here is that, so far, I have had no legal representation whatsoever, and don’t expect to need any. I expect to be able to prove the validity of my objection without using experts, or expensive legal advice. The Edward’s on the other hand have engaged a firm of solicitors with a dozen offices, and who have their own speciality land division. I’m very curious why they haven’t used any of the numerous local legal practices, but…well as with most things, I have my own suspicions about this.
There was one element of my objection which has already been upheld by the LR as it was supported by other facts, and involved something that any competent applicant should have been aware of. Somehow, they weren’t.
And the net result of this so far, apart from mounting costs for them…well the Land registry have had to send them a couple of letters for them to make basic corrections to the fairly simple application forms they sent in. They have made requests to the Land Registry that they have no legal right to do ..and which the LR properly ignored. Even their recent application for a stay of the proceedings completely failed to comply with the legal guidelines as clearly set out in the legislation. If this is considered to be legal competence, I find it terrifying. I have no doubt however that this “competence” will be coming at a very high price.
Oh, and as I stated earlier, their actual SOC has no material difference to the application they originally submitted. There was no extra work involved, no huge legal brief with reference to a dozen previous points of law…just the same stuff sent in again. Of course, they don’t know the basis of my case, although, actually, yes they do as the objection I sent to the LR was automatically copied to them. They did state that my objection was convoluted, misconceived and is embarrassing for lack of particularisation. Interesting that, as the LR determined that my submission was valid, sufficient anyway to get things to this point.
The current position is that the Tribunal will consider their application for a stay after the 5th December..the date set for my SOC to be submitted. Oh, and the Edward’s solicitors have to provide a bloody good reason why they should even consider doing this. In other words, the Tribunal will have all of the basis of the case in front of them before they decide how to proceed.
What is obvious to me, and I suspect, most other people is that these people are trying very hard to stop the Tribunal from taking place. And yet again, the question to be asked here is why. The Tribunal are the authority and place to sort out proving who owns what, and once that element of this situation is resolved, there is no basis for me to continue to fight. You would think that this would be in their best interest, get this resolved as quickly as possible, and then move on. But for some reason, apparently not.
If the land becomes the registered property of the Edward’s, getting me off there legally is a simple application to any court…If I attempted to remain there anyway…which I wouldn’t. I’ve always said I would leave if they can prove they own the land. It’s not my fault they’ve never sorted this issue out. Their ownership of the land is based on a will from 1969, and a partial set of deeds from 1940. So this is a situation that should have been legally dealt with 50 years ago.
And please don’t forget that these are professional landowners. They state they have bought and sold land in the past, and state they own other land. They run a farming business from a large farm, although this is owned by the local council. In other words, their entire world, home, lifestyle, income etc is derived from land based activities. This is not some naive city dweller who inherited land in the country and had no idea what to do with it, their entire world has revolved around land all of their lives.
Oh and the land they claim to own was actually being subsidised by the taxpayer. They say the land was part of their claim for a single farm payment which a couple of years ago was worth £30K to them in a single year. In real terms they have been paid to do nothing on land they had effectively abandoned. I used to have to work very hard to earn my living as most people do. I was clearly in the wrong career.
To those of you who are following this situation, I will continue to update this page regularly, particularly if there is any relevant activity which may be of interest.
You may note that I have provided all the information I gathered about the site, and initial issues with the Edward’s when I first met them. You may therefore wonder why I haven’t provided links to, or uploaded all the other information I now have including the application to the Land Registry, the various letters that have passed back and forwards, and the cases before the Land Tribunal. I intend to provide all this in due course, but probably after the proceedings have been completed and there is an outcome.
I have also provided the Edward’s an ongoing opportunity to resolve this issue by coming to a reasonable agreement with me. This has been on the table from the start, and is little different to what was suggested at the beginning when I first arrived.
Unfortunately, what appears to be the case is that the Edward’s are determined to throw money at a pointless legal exercise which I am confident they will eventually lose(to some degree). This is their choice and they have every right to do this
I should clarify two important points here.
The Edward’s will end up with full title to any land that belongs to them, and I will no longer be present on that land in any way. They will not have to take any action to remove me. If the land belongs to them, I will leave it alone.
This is not, despite what some people chose to believe, a cunning plan for financial gain. I am not looking to be paid off to leave this land. The fact that there has been a considerable effort being made by me to fight over this has been a worthwhile exercise.
Anybody reading this website will see that I advocate people bringing abandoned land back into use and ownership, and using adverse possession is one of the many ways to do this. By engaging in a full on battle with someone who claims to own the land has, from the beginning, been a valuable learning curve, and one that hasn’t finished yet. Ironically, even the threat of other legal action is increasing my knowledge and awareness of the kind of battles, and potential pitfalls that anyone else following this route may experience. And in time, all of this will be shared on this website, and others can make good use of the knowledge and experience I’ve gathered here.
However, I have made a genuine offer to resolve this situation with the Edward’s. The entire Tribunal process could easily be avoided and any further legal action made completely unnecessary. But I don’t think they’ll take it. They’re too belligerent and stubborn, and I suspect are being encouraged by their solicitors to fight this as much as they can. The fact I am fighting them over something they believe is already theirs means that they do have a valid point. However, I also have a valid point, which I will uphold as much as they wish to uphold theirs. Most people would have a point where common sense kicks in and seek some kind of sensible solution. I suspect that this isn’t going to happen here.
I’m not saying what the solution is, but part of the offer is that I cease publicizing the case itself if they come to an agreement with me. If this happens, I will not be listing all of the current legal shenanigans as this would fall under that. Time will tell. If you come back to the site and find a wealth of new information, you’ll be able to work that one out.
Update of situation re Land at Tremain posted 18/08/23
I managed to move all of my property back onto the land within a week of the farmer attempting to throw me off.
I responded immediately to their actions by bringing over a tent, and camping equipment which was erected on the land the day after they had blocked the access.
I spent the entire first night cutting as many of the bales of silage down. This is actually extremely difficult as they are incredibly tightly wrapped, and do not break apart easily. I managed to move approx 3 full bales which allowed me enough access to bring my small tractor back onto the plot, and pull a few items back in.
I then continued to break apart the silage bales that were blocking the main entrance to the site, and managed to remove approximately half of these. The farmers made no attempt to have any contact with me during this time, but they were clearly watching my activity with interest as, during a period where I had popped into the local town for supplies, they returned, and interestingly, made no attempt to move my tent or other property. What they did do was to manoeuvre their machine in the field next door, and drop about another 10 bales over the fence, creating even more of a blockage.
This initially had me completely stumped as there was clearly no way I could prevent them from doing this unless I remained on the site constantly which was impossible. They were clearly attempting to make it impossible for me to get my stuff back onto the site, and I can only assume that they believed I would eventually give up and abandon the effort.
At this point I decided that I would attempt to create some publicity about what had happened at the site, and sent a pre written article to the Western Mail and the Cambrian News. Both of these sent reporters out within the week, and the articles reached the front pages of the local press shortly afterwards before being picked up by some of the bigger news groups, and going national shortly afterwards.
What I did do was to take a closer look at the boundary with the road, and realised that there was a section approx 15 feet wide which appeared to have a hedge and trees growing, but which was actually quite a small fallen tree that was simply covered in Ivy, and which effectively blocked the entire section. It appeared to be a hedge, but actually wasn’t. And it wouldn’t be hard to move it.
I spent a very productive night chopping away at the tree. I was cutting this with a battery powered chainsaw which proved very effective but laborious and time consuming as I used the noise of traffic on the road to block out any sound I was making. Unfortunately, having one lorry come by at 3am onwards every 15 to 20 minutes meant it really was slow going. However, once the bulk of it was cut, I could drag it out the way and over the next few hours used a (completely silent) hand winch to pull all my property back onto the site. I even managed to use the fence which had been pulled from the entrance to block the new hole.
Suffice to say Kevin Edwards arrived the following morning, screamed at me to get up ( I had gone to bed by then) and then proceeded to stomp around the site, screaming at me and kicking things. He had a young friend with him who held his phone up recording me as I just stood there watching him, whilst asking some completely stupid questions, presumably hoping to get some kind of response. I gave them non, and Mr Edwards eventually got bored of screaming, threatened to come back with a 100 of his farmer mates who would all be here within 30 minutes…and that was the last I saw of him.
And this is how the situation still remains.
I am still on the site, all my property remains there, the caravan was re-sited and continues to be used, and I stay there overnight at times. I continue to visit as regularly as before, monitor the camera’s and make sure there has been no further trouble. And so far, there hasn’t been. I’ve been left alone with the only exception to this being that the fence I put in the gap keeps getting pulled over. I keep putting it back as it only leans against a couple of trees, and someone keeps pulling it over.
Seems completely pointless to me
I have seen the farmer, Kevin Edwards a couple of times as he does actually work some of the adjacent fields. I’ve even attempted to approach him, but he has leapt in his tractor at the sight of me, and driven off rather rapidly.
There have however been some interesting developments with the Land Registry which have been informative and revealing. The made contact with me as they considered me to be an interested party and informed me that the Edward’s were attempting to register the property. I was informed of this in May, and provided with a couple of documents. I was given the opportunity to object to their application and have subsequently done so
I asked them for more documents and an extension which they provided and agreed to, and I discovered that the application to register the land had actually been made in July 2022, a few months after my arrival, but it seems that the Edward’s had instructed their solicitor, not only to not inform me of their application which it appears is based on some actual evidence which may support their claim to the land, but they had also instructed the Land Registry that I was not to be informed of the application either. The land registry had disregarded this as they have a legal duty to do so.
This is very interesting as my capacity to object to their application shouldn’t be of any concern to them at all if they have absolute faith in the validity of their claim. If their claim is valid, there is nothing that I could do to object, or even disrupt it in any way, they will get the full legal title and I will be gone shortly afterwards. I would have no choice in the matter.
What of course is interesting about this is that I have always said I would leave if they could prove their ownership. Here they are with apparent proof of ownership and the one person they do not want informed of this is me. Quite what the logic of this is I have no idea (well I do, but I’m not revealing it at this point)
Another major question is, given their application which they had no reason to believe would not be successful(their solicitor has clearly suggested that their application should easily succeed) what on earth was the point of attempting to move me by force when they could have waited till they had the title deeds, and removed me without any fuss whatsoever.
However…without going into the details of this, I have objected to their application. This has been reviewed by the legal team at the Land Registry and has been deemed to be a valid objection. I would point out that they will not block an application simply because there is an objection..the objection has to have merit sufficient for them to deem it to be credible. My objection meets these criteria and the application has been blocked. It now cannot proceed unless I withdraw it, or unless the whole situation is reviewed by the first tier of the Land Tribunal service (effectively a specialist branch of the court service) and a determination is made by them.
Interestingly the LR do provide an opportunity for any parties who are effectively in dispute as is the situation here, to resolve their differences and reach an agreement. This is the first option which has to be agreed to by both parties, and which then has to be resolved within a six month period. I did notify the LR that I was prepared to negotiate, but it would seem that the Edwards’ would not, so by default the case is automatically referred to the Tribunal. I am now waiting to hear when the case will be heard.
One element of my objection was something that was so obvious that anyone with any common sense could see the flaw in it. The Edwards’ have engaged a large firm of solicitors with branches across South and West Wales and the case is being dealt with by their specialised property department. I’m not overly concerned, so far the LR have had to write to them several times pointing out the flaws in their application. Even their request to block information being given to me is actually legally invalid as the LR are very specifically instructed in the enabling legislation to make all of their information available to the public without exception. So it would seem that I am either better informed, or simply have more common sense than their undoubtedly extremely expensive solicitors. Oh and another point of interest is that there is a section on the application form where a legal professional has to state that they have professionally evaluated (and presumably therefore fully support) the application they are in the process of making. They appear to have neglected to tick that particular box in the initial application until prompted by the LR, and on the updated and corrected application form, they have answered NO to that particular question.
So a couple of very obvious questions come to mind
1. Why have the farmers and their solicitors attempted to conceal their application from me
2. Why are they concerned that I could disrupt their application
3. What on earth was the point of attempting the throw me off the land if they expected to get the full title in due time
4. What exactly are they attempting to conceal and of course, why??
5. Are the Edwards’ acting in a genuine and honest manner, am I??
Oh, and suffice to say, I can answer all of those questions with the sole exception of No 3. I only learned of their application after the attempt to throw me off. I can only assume that it perhaps indicates a lack of confidence in their application, legal team, or impatience as the whole process seemed to be taking so long. Either way it was completely unnecessary and pointless….oh, and of course, much to their dissatisfaction, it failed.
They will only remove me from this land if they have a legal right to do so. Whether they can prove they have a case to do this remains to be seen.
I will continue to update this section of my site whenever relevant information comes up.
Once there is a determination from the Land Tribunal, I will post the outcome here shortly afterwards. If the outcome is not in my favour, I will immediately withdraw from the land owned by the Edwards’ without any further legal action being taken. I will make no attempt to remain there once the outcome of ownership is definitively resolved. They will not have to incur further legal costs in order to remove me. I have stated from the outset that I will leave if there is proof of ownership, and I completely stand by that. The only issue is that it may take me 7 to 10 days to get all of my property removed, but there will be no delay beyond that period.
The following is a text I’ve written to various local papers hoping to drum up some publicity. They do appear to be interested
People travelling along the A487 in West Wales recently may be wondering about the strange activity occurring close to Tremain near Cardigan. There is a site here, seemingly long abandoned that became the target of a self confessed land pirate just under a year ago. This is the point at which I surreptitiously cleared a long overgrown entrance on a piece of land where there was no evidence of activity for decades and took formal (adverse) possession of it.
I entered the site, having done extensive research including the land registry which showed all the surrounding properties were registered as normal, but this plot, for whatever reason was not. Not only was there no evidence of use, but the plot contained one of the worst infestations of Japanese Knotweed he had ever seen. My actions are entirely legal as defined by the Land Registration Act 2002.
It transpired that a local farming family claimed they owned the land, and duly arrived asking me to leave immediately, which I agreed to as soon as I was shown evidence of their ownership. Even land that is unregistered would be expected to have clear evidence of ownership if there is a genuine owner. In this case, nothing was forthcoming, and I have now been on the site, essentially undisturbed for nearly a year.
Unfortunately, the farmer, who with evidence of ownership could easily reclaim the land, has now chosen to take a more direct, heavy handed approach. Without any warning he has removed a caravan, car and other property causing criminal damage, and has blocked any access with 20 bales of rotten silage. Undeterred, I spent a week removing these, only to find my nemesis had returned and dropped another load of bales over the fence from a neighbouring field. And surprisingly, it seems he hasn’t actually broken any laws in doing so. In an interesting quirk of law, it seems that I could easily defend my possession of the property if someone else had taken possession of it, but it seems that what would be considered by many to be deliberate vandalism, harassment, or any number of other possible offenses, appears to be none of these. The only response from local police was in response to a small amount of damage caused then things were dragged out. A previous incident where a camera was deliberately damaged was reported but the easily identified perpetrator was never dealt with leaving me with little confidence that the law will offer any protection.
My position is very clear. If they have no proof of ownership, then I don’t intend to leave. It seems their interest in this land only seems to have been sparked by my presence.
They even stated when they first met me that the land had no value, and therefore they didn’t want the expense of registering it. It would however appear that their lack of evidence of ownership may have played a part in this decision. It would seem that in the absence of evidence, they seem to think that force and bullying will achieve the desired result.
Time will tell.
This is a recording of my first contact with the farming family claiming ownership of the land.
Here is a breakdown of the key points of the recording
Who gave you permission to park this caravan here (0.12)
Is it your land..”it’s my land, yes, it’s our land” (0.21)
It’s registered under the government, it’s part of our single farm payment (0.24)
We get paid for these trees, and you’ve cut them down (0.36)
When do you intend leaving..when you show evidence that you actually own the land..(0.46)
My grandfather left me this land (0.57)
You have proof of ownership….”yes” (1.04)
As soon as I see the proof of ownership, then I’ll leave. I’m not here to cause a problem (0.17)
I suggest, if you have the proof of ownership, then register the land, there’s no reason why not (1.41)
You’ve got a cost to it to register land then, yes, yes, we’ve done plenty of it (1.48)
We’ve bought and sold land previously, we know the cost of it (1.57)
I’ve got machines that could pull this…One tow, and you’ll be out. (2.21)
I’m the B team, just wait till the A team comes here, you’ll know about it (2.30)
It’s on you, it’ll be on you (3.03)
Here is the third and main contact when I was shown the will dated from 1969
Following day around the same time, 11.25
I’ve got the map of the land my grandfather left me, and I’ve got his will. The land is not registered, but it’s in the process of being registered (1.18)
It’s just a map, it doesn’t prove anything, it doesn’t prove title (1.37)
This is captain Daniel Evans, my grandfather, Mother Glenys Evans (2.53)
Date of the will…1969
The will is irrelevent, title should have passed to …..(3.32)
If the title was sound it would have passed to…(3.37)
note I got this wrong as the title should have passed to her, not her mother, but it was very noisy, and I had no time to really consider what I was being shown. I only got to look at this will for a few seconds, on the bonnet of their car.
The background noise is the council mowing the verges and you hear the mower, and strimmer most of the time.
This doesn’t mean a thing…I’m sorry (4.04)
Ask a solicitor (4.10)
Stealing, this is (4.19)
You prove that it’s your property and I go..(4.21)
A will from 1969 is not proof of ownership (4.26)
You’ve had 30 years to get this property registered (4.30)
I’ve been farming here…you haven’t done a thing..(4.36)
people coming here..and bloody steal land (4.49)
You could have registered this land anytime in the last 30 years (4.54)
because we didn’t get planning permission on it we didn’t do it (4.58)
It was cost, and you are costing us now (5.03)
Everybody knows round here who’s been farming this (5.14)
Yes, but you have bits of paper that proves your ownership, and if you haven’t…..(5.19)
Please don’t try to do anything to move this, or move any of these..you will be acting illegally…(5.49)
Here is a link to the page I posted with information that anyone can access regarding what is happenning at the site. A QR code that linked to this page was posted on the fence in two places, and there were pull off cards that people could take away with the code printed on it.
Here is a link to a page with the initial letter I had passed to the farmers regarding the site.
Watch this space..
This is the section of land in question
This shows the 1905 map where there are cottages clearly shown, and the land forms part of the gardens to two of these